Re: Update to SMF 2.0.8?

Just wait for people to do their job, do it better on your own and then blast it out when you can prove that your own job is 100% better than theirs.

There's a caveat in that one. You can do two things:

1.) Work *with* the people whom are doing their job/doing their best

2.) Work on your own on something different (which may be incompatible) whilst they work on something else (Which might, incidentally, be a waste of time then; as bundling resources to work on the same thing can be better. (Just might not get your way in each and every aspect, that's a freedom limitation when working on the same thing with multiple people)

Imho, option 1 is the best. But that's down to opinion.

... we are better by doing our project better than they could do with a whole team working on it (we are just 2 plus a few more helpers) ...

I've seen that argument before. Namely from forks. When you can spend all your time 100% on just working on getting something out without the need to focus on other crucially important aspects of releasing your own software: the moment it is out you'll have *a lot* more to deal with than solely dealing with, for example, development.

Whilst it is easy to say "look, we did much more with just 2 people whilst you're with a lot more!!" whilst you can focus energy on one aspect and they cannot, it is apparently also equally easily forgotten that the product already out there requires a lot more than solely developing. And I think everyone making such claims, and as you so eloquently put it "feel good about yourself", will eventually find that out for themselves...

Keep that in mind.

Also don't forget that what *you* think is best might not be the vision and/or goal of other people. What is truth for you or "the best" for you does not mean somebody else has to abide by that idea as well or that someone else will share that idea/vision and thus has a different truth or "the best" idea.

Just shy of five months for a bug fix release is not a timely manner.

The 2.0.8 upgrade.

Been there, done all of that. Got each of the t-shirts in multiple colours. None of it works.

Then no offense but: perhaps it is time for a different hobby?

If contributing doesn't work, forking with someone else doesn't work and/or forking on your own doesn't work: I'd be drawing my conclusions.

If none of the T-Shirt's of the particular band fit: try another band.

Of course, you can draw another conclusion.

Of course it's not. But literally nothing else works. I can't motivate you guys into fixing your own ****** with rainbows and unicorns. And I can't motivate you guys into fixing your own ****** with a big stick either. Nor can I fix your ****** because as we've seen, that doesn't work either. What am I supposed to conclude? That your ****** can't be fixed?

You can conclude that if you wish. I care to detest.

As far as there is ******, the team is constantly working on improving whatever ****** their is and turn it in to a good thing.

Perhaps that doesn't go at the pace you'd like it to be in. But that's more a patience problem than non-activity from the team.

Keep in mind, you can motiviate: but you can't motivate people, with different personalities and ideas, to conform themselves 100% to your opinion.

I tried being constructive. Like everything else it didn't work. You can only help a patient who *wants* to be helped.

I'm pretty sure the "patient" is always happy with whatever help is available to improve their 'condition'.

That the patient perhaps does not accept all treatment and/or disagrees with The Doctor once in a while when a lot comes up that might be subject to change or (potential) improvement: that is something that *will* be encountered for sure.

I rejoined last autumn specifically because I thought I could make more difference by being involved. But given the pressure I was under to not do what I wanted to do and to do what the team wanted (remember: I didn't actually want to work on 2.1), I came to realise that nothing I said was actually working.

Well, I guess that's potentially the problem then.

In a team environment, it isn't possible to call all the shots and do only what you like, 100% to your idea. (Remember: I don't think anyone forced to work on 2.1)

You'd either have to become lead (declined.) or start a solo project. But when multiple people try to work out one product: a single person cannot always get their way. (And I do believe you got your way on a number of things. And yeap, those were quite good )

Then, perhaps, their best isn't actually very good, is it?

I'm fairly confident it is.

It does not take 5 months to install a bug fix patch, not even with the problems that were encountered at the time. At *most* it should take an afternoon, even if you had to go and make all the relevant changes (including in the database) by hand. And yet here we are, five months on and the proper fixed version of 2.0.7 is still not installed. I even checked before posting that (because quoting a post with smileys into the full editor when using WYSIWYG doesn't work properly in the first version of 2.0.7)

And it is of course a major blocker...

Am I supposed to tell you that you've done a good job?

You're supposed to do whatever you like. You can either say we did a ****** job or a good job... Which one it is: that's up to you.

Here's something else to ponder. If I hadn't gotten embarrassed at the team last month when I prepared the bulk of 2.0.8, would you have a 2.0.8 to push today? Would someone have spent the time fixing the issues in 2.0.7 if I hadn't?

Perhaps we would, perhaps we would not. I, and many others, thanked you for your contribution and sincerely hope you will contribute more in the future.

(Although, by the looks of it; that chance seems somewhat slim. Unfortunately.)

I'm sure it will have gotten there, just not as fast. So yes, thank you for ensuring this could be pushed out very fast.

This is a huge part of the problem. I cannot trust you guys to get your house in order by evidence of what I see in front of me. I accept the Avast stuff necessarily delayed 2.0.8 in case a legitimate security issue was found but that was weeks ago - and still doesn't change the fact that testing on 2.0.8 could have been done in the interim even with Charter Members. I can't quite believe that no-one tested 2.0.8 search in the month the patch was with you guys.

It was tested interim, with charter members.

No, I don't. That's another problem.

If I thought you people were listening to me and taking on board what I was saying, what I've been saying for months or in some cases years, maybe I wouldn't be quite so much of a doom monger as Kindred has labelled me. Maybe if I thought there was any chance of you getting your house in order I wouldn't be so negative. But NOTHING I have seen leads me to believe that's going to happen. Each day I see more and more evidence to support my position.

Oh come on. Again, no offense, but that one imho is not very fair at all. You know very well, as you also just indicated yourself, that you have not been making the most pleasant of posts lately. Very negative in tone. That's ok, but I'm quite sure you were not surprised that at one point someone, in this case Kindred, said something about it... And I think it's unfair that you do take offense to that, whilst apparently the people you're saying negative things to should accept it and keep quiet about it... Come on, that's not fair, is it?

I personally don't think there's a need to drag that one out. You *both* had your say and have your opinion, you've both been negative... Done. Carry on. Let it be.

If I were to be doing the same thing I could be quoting for months on the last post with "******", "team doing a worthless job", "your house is out of order", etc.

Hate me if you must, but I sincerely feel you're dragging that one out, and slightly out of context, while there's no point nor real purpose in it.

Either way, that aside...

I disagree with you. I believe it's quite perfectly in order, but sure it's not going very fast and the evidence might not be instantly visible. We've never been fast. And there's only such limited hands that can work on it.

If you're truly so concerned and absolutely convinced there is no "order in the house": step up. Lead. Get it in order. Don't shout: do! Shouting and cursing will not fix it, if anything is wrong.

... But if you only accept your own vision as the right one: it's never going to work in a huge team environment. Sadly.

Big waste. Such potential. Much sad.

I quite agree, but I think we're talking about different things.

I hope you can turn the negative feelings in to positive ones. Don't only look at us, also look at yourself.